Why did you leave EMI?
Well, why indeed, seven years, seven albums... Terribly nice people. I've very good friends there but it seemed the thing to do. I realised that I was in the building so often that I was surprised they didn't give me a janitor's bucket. "Here comes dear old Mogsy; let's give him a few Angelic Upstarts eight by tens and he'll be happy." But there was nowhere else to go with EMI. It was enough time to know whether I was going to rule the planet or not. And I expect I won't.

So moving on is part of a campaign for world domination?
Not in the least. Can you imagine anything so boring as world domination. What would you do in your spare time?

Why RCA? Elvis Presley?
Well, partly, I can't deny that. But it sounds good, doesn't it, RCA? Modern record labels don't sound good. Morrissey and RCA sounds good, don't you agree?

Southpaw Grammar has got an 11-minute track, a 10-minute one. Have you gone progressive rock?
Oh, definitely, I'd love to continue where Van Der Graaf Generator left off. No, we just didn't know how to stop the tape. There's no great point. I mean, they're still pop songs, aren't they? Enough said. As musicians, they've improved enormously from when we began and we've become a group and it shows. It's not a matter of me saying, 'You get on with it while I go and ski somewhere'. We're just getting better. That simple; that complicated.

Another boxing allusion, I see.
Southpaw Grammar is the school of hard knocks. It's coming up the hard way and taking your bruises with you.

So you see yourself as a graduate of the school of hard knocks?
Well, it's not been easy. Put it that way. Whether we're talking about life or the dear old music industry. But of course, that drags us into extremely depressing territory. I don't know a great deal about boxing. I released a single called "Boxers" and everyone assumes I'm some authority and I'm not. I'm not an expert on the manly art or the sweet science as it's called. I just enjoy the violent aspect of it. I think it's quite glamorous. I long for my chance to join in. No, no, I don't think I'm ready to spring into the ring.

Axl Rose once wrote a song...
Nobody's interested.

... called "Get In The Ring", in which he invited his detractors to sort it out pugilistically. Does that appeal to you?
No. I've got better things to do... like planting bulbs.

People will say it's pure affectation, like the current bourgeois football fad.
Well, some people will always say something. I'm not an expert. I'm just a face in the crowd who enjoys it for maybe a misguided aspect. But I do enjoy the unpleasantness. And the working-class aspect, which I don't need to mention, do I?

Been to many bouts?
As many as I can get to. Some of which are extremely boring. But some are very interesting. There are lots of unusual characters. And, of course, our Prince friend (Hamed Naseem) is top of the list. I long to see him trip over the ropes, which of course he won't.

What are the advantages of being rich?
None really. Which is why I find it sad to meet people who are totally geared toward finance. I know for a fact that it's quite meaningless. Of course, it's easy for me to say that as I lounge here. But it's true. You may be a billionaire, but if you contract cancer, you may as well live in a bedsit in Birmingham.

"Reader Meet Author" seems to be about people who "slum it".
I've come across it many times. It's a fascinating phenomenon. Especially amongst music journalists who pretend to understand all aspects of life however degrading. It amuses me that these people are middle class and I know a few and their preoccupation is in meddling with the destitute and desperate as a hobby. Middle-class writers are fascinated by those who struggle. They find it righteous and amusing.

Is "low life" the right term for what you write about?
No, it's my life actually. It's not affected in the least. Working-class culture isn't particularly going anywhere. On the song you mention, I sing, "The year 2000 won't change anyone here" and that's true. It won't change their lives. They won't be catapulted into space age culture and mobile fax machines. The poor remain poor. Someone has to work in Woolworth's.

And it could have been you.
No. I haven't got the legs.

Do you enjoy provoking people?
Not in the least. I've never tried... have I?

The Union Jack business was pretty provocative.
I didn't invent the Union Jack, you do realise that don't you? I didn't knock it up on a spinning wheel in the front room. I can't account for people's reactions. Some people adore it; others are embarrassed by it. I don't get it. I don't understand the Fascist implications of it. I think it happened because it was time to get old Mozzer. Nothing more sophisticated that that.

How do you feel about Eric Cantona?
I feel very excited by him as long as he doesn't say anything. He certainly made the world of football slightly less boring this year. I approved because it was very entertaining and I found the witnesses in the crowd very suspect. When I saw it on television, I howled. I watched every version of the news. He also happens to be a great player. The negative publicity doesn't matter... as don't the Crystal Palace fans. I think he set a good example. I found it very encouraging and glamorous and exciting. And it wasn't violence as much as self-defence. He is a human being and the abuse hurled at him was incredibly personal and disturbing. How could he have lived with himself if he had not reacted? Everyone secretly agrees with him anyway.

What of Hugh Grant?
I couldn't care less, but if forced I'd say it makes him more interesting than he actually is. People who are insufferably respectable are just not interesting. It'll work in his favour. He should do it more often. If I was Elizabeth Hurley and he hadn't done anything, I wouldn't stand by him. He's so overrated. All he seems to have is an English accent. I don't believe incidents like Hugh Grant's and Cantona's are moments of insanity. Those seem like moments of sanity. Perhaps it's the rest of their lives that are insane. People are terribly stifled and apart and not in touch with how they feel.

This sounds like the Oprah Winfrey show.
I haven't been on there recently but I know what you mean. But if people took the plunge, they'd find that they wouldn't be rejected and life wouldn't deteriorate, but people are terribly frightened. Within pop music people are frightened of not being accepted. I've never felt that but I know others do.

But if people were healthier emotionally, surely artists like yourself would be out of a job.
But haven't we had enough art? How much art do we need? It results in analysing vomit. There are better things to do.

Do you get recognised in the back of taxis?
I get recognised in the front of taxis as well! But I've learned my lesson. My celebrity doesn't cause many problems because I don't do anything extreme. There are constant nudges and winks and nods as I walk around. But that's survivable. But at the level of Cliff Richard or Michael Jackson life would be unbearable. Money can't compensate for that lack of freedom. I'm happy with the level of fame I have. Fame really isn't as useful or attractive as it once was. If you are famous now, you have to pay for your fame and answer for your existence. And anything you do, however innocent, can be made to seem devious. The only interest we have is in revealing famous people as something unsavoury. I know that some people who are famous are terrible, relentless slags but most of them aren't. That's why I never buy newspapers. I have no interest in seeing people destroyed whether I like them or not. I don't want to know about Hugh Grant. I don't want to know about Tommy Steele even.

Were you happier as a teenager?
No, I was never happy then. Not for one day. But I think I've probably touched upon that in the past. I've mentioned it somewhere! I never thought it was possible to get this old. I thought when you reached 35, you were shipped off to Anglesey. But I don't want to go back. There's nothing happy there for me. I'm getting happier as I get older but that's sheer perseverance. I've just stuck with it. I never enjoyed life in my twenties, not one minute of it. It was a test of endurance that I'm surprised I survived. Professionaly, of course, I was doing very well but personally it couldn't have been worse or more difficult for me if I'd been living in a mud hut in Leeds.

Have you ever had a religious impulse?
No, I haven't in all honesty. I would like to but I haven't. There must be consolations and comforts because millions of people can't be wrong but I think I'm just a doomed realist.

What do you think of Oasis?
I've always liked them. I think they're very amusing and very Mancunian and the best Manchester group since... (shrugs smilingly). But I do wish the singer wasn't so put out. "Do I really have to sing this next verse?" He could always go back to being a painter and decorator in Burnage. I read a comment supposedly by me in Club International where I called them boring electricians, words which have never left my lips. So they've slagged me off, of course, they have to, but I like them. Noel's very funny. Very runt of the litter. You can tell that he'd run off with the fillings in his grandmother's teeth but that doesn't mean he doesn't love her.

Would you pass Norman Tebbit's cricket test?
Yes, I would. Anything Norman Tebbit has anything to do with must be a bad idea but if someone else were to word it differently I'd probably support it.

If you were forced to leave England at the point of a gun, where would you go?
Jersey, Guernsey, anywhere with a decent postal service.

Not Los Angeles?
No. I need grit and struggle and Los Angeles is terribly nice but people once they get there cease to be real. Constant and repetitive fulfilment is not good for the human spirit. We all need rain and good old depression. Life can't be all beer and skittles.

What do you think of Martin Rossiter from Gene? He sounds uncannily like you.
Well again, you'll fall over but I wasn't aware of Gene until someone handed me a tape of their album and said, 'Have you ever seen Stars In Their Eyes?' And I said, 'I'm not aware of it,' and they said, 'Well you are going to be now.' I thought it was a good record. It didn't so much remind me of The Smiths as (coyly) well... me. When people sing like me, and thankfully very few do, people think it's like The Smiths but the musicians in Gene are not like The Smiths. Let's face it, when we begin, we all take from the people who influence us until we find our own ground. I don't want to be cynical, old and crusty. Why should I criticise Gene? I don't feel inclined to. But neither do I feel that I should race toward them waving the gladioli saying, 'Now it's your turn'.

Where do you go for your holidays?
I don't go on holiday. Not since they shut down Butlin's at Bognor. No, I just hang around the East End in a long black cape.

You once said to me that your ideal audience was skinheads in nail varnish. Is that still true?
I'm sure there was a certain flippancy to that remark. I wasn't banging a mallet on the table.

But there's many a true word spoken in jest.
Not by me. No, I really did get tired of being considered the flat-footed wallflower, which still haunts me a bit. And yet I listen to other people's music and it never strikes me as anything like as hard or confrontational as mine. But I'm still considered this weakling.

Ever fancied Prozac?
I know little about Prozac. I've tried it of course. We all have. But it just didn't work for me. So there's no appeal in something that doesn't work.

Did you take any interest in the Tory leadership election?
Yes, I did. I was very excited by John Redwood. And very depressed when he failed. But it's all inconsequential because Major is doomed and it doesn't matter how many Eurovision Song Contests he wins and how much he polished his spectacles. His life has got doom sealed around it and rightly so because he's astonishingly weak. Redwood was amusing and in political life that's extraordinary. He seemed amused by what was going on and he had a spark of life, which is incredibly rare. People like that don't succeed in politics, which is so drab now. Bad politicians are elected by good people who don't vote. At the final hurdle it will be Tony Blair and Michael Portillo. And I think Michael Portillo will probably do it because the press like him. And that's all that counts. Kinnock, who was a great orator and politican, was destroyed by the press not by the people of England. The press like Michael Portillo so it shall be him. John Major is weak and I don't think we should feel sorry for him. Do you find you have several hours to kill in the day in which to feel sorry for John Major? There are people starving to death in Preston you know.

Where do you buy your clothes?
I buy them second-hand from Camdem market; I have an extraordinary capacity for disguise. I dress up as a train driver. I never buy anything new. They do make good new clothes but I think of the West End and Comme Des Garcons and I don't really fancy it. You walk in the door and you're besieged by glamorous assistants and that's no good. It's very intimidating.

Would you like to be like Van Morrison or Neil Young, an elder statesman of rock?
Not particularly, because the celebration of those people is that they are still alive and they go on and on about how healthy they are as if it's a miracle. That's not for me. I don't want to stick around longer than necessary. 'So why are you still here,' I can hear millions of people saying. The Rolling Stones are an industry and nothing more. I've met Keith and Mick and they were very, very nice. The only useless thing is the music. Do people listen? Part of me thinks that the notion of pop and rock being for young people is very true.

You favour a compulsory retirement age then?
Yes, I do. It should be whatever age I'm not. I said in 1988 I thought pop music was over and I still believe that. Very few of the newer groups have anything original to offer. I quite like Supergrass. But the trouble with new young groups is that the press always ruin it. You always want to seem ahead of the game.

Do you still watch Top Of The Pops?
No. What's the point? I've seen it by accident and it seems always to be the same dance song, and I've always believed that dance music should not be allowed to infiltrate the pop chart. It should be separate like it was in America in the '70's as was country etc. It makes it impossible to listen to the radio or watch The Chart Show. It's always dance stroke rap stroke whatever.

Jungle?
Jungle! I don't know what it is.

It's someone shouting incomprehensibly over mechanical rhythms.
But I thought that was the Jesus And Mary Chain.

What do you think of the Criminal Justice Bill? Do you think people in leggings have a right to live wherever they choose?
I don't think people in leggings have a right to live. I don't think people should hold raves because I don't like rave music. I suggested the Criminal Justice Bill, so I'm glad that it's been taken up.

Ever bought a Lottery ticket?
Absolutely never. When anybody mentions the Lottery I feel quite ill. It's one of the worst things ever to happen to England. It makes people savage and tedious. Do something useful instead. And I absolutely loathe Anthea Turner. If she gave me a cheque for 20 million I'd hand it back. She's awful to watch. That fixed smile, that fraudulent jollity. She's on breakfast television and even if she were telling you that a planeload of children had died in the worst Air India crash ever, she would still keep smiling. How has she got a job? Her happiness actually makes me depressed.

Ever been to a karaoke evening?
Yes, at the Little Driver in Bow and it was shocking.

Why?
You know why. I like simple pleasures and uncomplicated people but that takes the biscuit. I can't understand why anybody would want to do it. There are easier ways to embarrass yourself.

I see Paul Weller's back.
Back? Where's he been? I haven't noticed. He was encouraging at one time because he was one artist who surpassed his heroes. The Jam will be very special forever. I think people are saying thank you for The Jam. And for younger groups like Blur obviously it struck a chord. Weller performed 'Woodcutter's Son' on Later and immediately after, Supergrass came in with 'We are young...' and I thought, 'There's a gigantic message hanging in the air there for you, Uncle Paul.'

What did Kurt Cobain's suicide mean to you?
I felt sad and I felt envious. He had the courage to do it. I admire people who self-destruct and that's not a new comment for me. They are taking control. They're refusing to continue with unhappiness, which shows tremendous self-will. It must be very frightening to sit down and look at your watch and think, 'In 30 minutes I will not be here.' Thinking, 'I'm going to go on that strange journey.' Modern life is very pressurising. We're all on the verge of hysteria. There are people around who'll shoot your head off because you forgot to indicate.

Could you survive in prison?
Only as a stand-up comedian. No, prison would probably be the making of me. It would be the beginning of life. Freedom doesn't always mean freedom. I'd probably prosper. We all need a bit of restriction.

Have you ever been to a Yates's Wine Lodge?
Yes, there was one in Manchester in the old days full of drunken men in overcoats with sick on their lapels. I like pubs; they're one of the last bastions of Englishness. I like quiet old men's pubs. I mean, I like the pubs to be quiet not the old men.

Ever been in trouble with the police?
Never. Well, that's a lie. I was visited a long time ago about a song I once did.

So the "Margaret On The Guillotine" story is true?
Of course. Yes, ridiculous grounds. But they don't need grounds, they've got a funny little hat and a truncheon. They recorded a conversation for an hour and searched the house for a guillotine. Curiously, they actually found one. They thought I was public enemy number 72. And at the end of the grilling they actually asked me to sign various things for ailing nieces, which I thought was a bit perverted.

Riots are back. Do you approve?
Yes, I do. (Laughs) No, I don't. The '70's persist, don't they? I saw some Chopper bicycles outside a pub the other day, which I thought was extreme. I've only ever found violence attractive from a distance, which is a bit pathetic, I know, but I suppose if you're in the thick of it, it's a bit unsettling. Incidentally, do you fuckin' want some?

Do I take it you're a fan of Quentin Tarantino?
Is he 'Pulp Fiction'? I haven't seen that. I'm not ready for John Revolting yet. I have bigger fish to fry.

Are you a member of anything?
The Skinhead Benevolent Fund. No, I don't mix. I don't make friends ever. I don't see the point.

But you have friends, so you must have made them at some point.
Don't complicate things. We have as many friends as we have personalities. Do you know who said that? Emerson. Keith Emerson.

Do you work out?
No, not at all. I don't do anything. I'd never feel confident in a gym. I wheel a trolley around Waitrose.

Do you ever stand in front of the urinal and think you've got the whole world in your hands?
I don't need to walk towards the urinal, I already know. And you should know better than to ask.

That's an enigmatic answer.
Well, we do our best.

The above interview was originally published in the September, 1995 issue of Q and is reprinted without permission for non-profit use only.