Why
did you leave EMI?
Well, why indeed, seven years, seven albums... Terribly nice people.
I've very good friends there but it seemed the thing to do. I realised
that I was in the building so often that I was surprised they didn't
give me a janitor's bucket. "Here comes dear old Mogsy; let's give him
a few Angelic Upstarts eight by tens and he'll be happy." But there
was nowhere else to go with EMI. It was enough time to know whether
I was going to rule the planet or not. And I expect I won't.
So moving
on is part of a campaign for world domination?
Not in the least. Can you imagine anything so boring as world domination.
What would you do in your spare time?
Why RCA?
Elvis Presley?
Well, partly, I can't deny that. But it sounds good, doesn't it,
RCA? Modern record labels don't sound good. Morrissey and RCA sounds
good, don't you agree?
Southpaw
Grammar has got an 11-minute track, a 10-minute one. Have you gone progressive
rock?
Oh, definitely, I'd love to continue where Van Der Graaf Generator
left off. No, we just didn't know how to stop the tape. There's no great
point. I mean, they're still pop songs, aren't they? Enough said. As
musicians, they've improved enormously from when we began and we've
become a group and it shows. It's not a matter of me saying, 'You get
on with it while I go and ski somewhere'. We're just getting better.
That simple; that complicated.
Another
boxing allusion, I see.
Southpaw Grammar is the school of hard knocks. It's coming up the
hard way and taking your bruises with you.
So you
see yourself as a graduate of the school of hard knocks?
Well, it's not been easy. Put it that way. Whether we're talking
about life or the dear old music industry. But of course, that drags
us into extremely depressing territory. I don't know a great deal about
boxing. I released a single called "Boxers" and everyone assumes I'm
some authority and I'm not. I'm not an expert on the manly art or the
sweet science as it's called. I just enjoy the violent aspect of it.
I think it's quite glamorous. I long for my chance to join in. No, no,
I don't think I'm ready to spring into the ring.
Axl Rose
once wrote a song...
Nobody's interested.
... called
"Get In The Ring", in which he invited his detractors to sort it out
pugilistically. Does that appeal to you?
No. I've got better things to do... like planting bulbs.
People
will say it's pure affectation, like the current bourgeois football
fad.
Well, some people will always say something. I'm not an expert. I'm
just a face in the crowd who enjoys it for maybe a misguided aspect.
But I do enjoy the unpleasantness. And the working-class aspect, which
I don't need to mention, do I?
Been to
many bouts?
As many as I can get to. Some of which are extremely boring. But
some are very interesting. There are lots of unusual characters. And,
of course, our Prince friend (Hamed Naseem) is top of the list.
I long to see him trip over the ropes, which of course he won't.
What are
the advantages of being rich?
None really. Which is why I find it sad to meet people who are totally
geared toward finance. I know for a fact that it's quite meaningless.
Of course, it's easy for me to say that as I lounge here. But it's true.
You may be a billionaire, but if you contract cancer, you may as well
live in a bedsit in Birmingham.
"Reader
Meet Author" seems to be about people who "slum it".
I've come across it many times. It's a fascinating phenomenon. Especially
amongst music journalists who pretend to understand all aspects of life
however degrading. It amuses me that these people are middle class and
I know a few and their preoccupation is in meddling with the destitute
and desperate as a hobby. Middle-class writers are fascinated by those
who struggle. They find it righteous and amusing.
Is "low
life" the right term for what you write about?
No, it's my life actually. It's not affected in the least. Working-class
culture isn't particularly going anywhere. On the song you mention,
I sing, "The year 2000 won't change anyone here" and that's true. It
won't change their lives. They won't be catapulted into space age culture
and mobile fax machines. The poor remain poor. Someone has to work in
Woolworth's.
And it
could have been you.
No. I haven't got the legs.
Do you
enjoy provoking people?
Not in the least. I've never tried... have I?
The Union
Jack business was pretty provocative.
I didn't invent the Union Jack, you do realise that don't you? I
didn't knock it up on a spinning wheel in the front room. I can't account
for people's reactions. Some people adore it; others are embarrassed
by it. I don't get it. I don't understand the Fascist implications of
it. I think it happened because it was time to get old Mozzer. Nothing
more sophisticated that that.
How do
you feel about Eric Cantona?
I feel very excited by him as long as he doesn't say anything. He
certainly made the world of football slightly less boring this year.
I approved because it was very entertaining and I found the witnesses
in the crowd very suspect. When I saw it on television, I howled. I
watched every version of the news. He also happens to be a great player.
The negative publicity doesn't matter... as don't the Crystal Palace
fans. I think he set a good example. I found it very encouraging and
glamorous and exciting. And it wasn't violence as much as self-defence.
He is a human being and the abuse hurled at him was incredibly personal
and disturbing. How could he have lived with himself if he had not reacted?
Everyone secretly agrees with him anyway.
What of
Hugh Grant?
I couldn't care less, but if forced I'd say it makes him more interesting
than he actually is. People who are insufferably respectable are just
not interesting. It'll work in his favour. He should do it more often.
If I was Elizabeth Hurley and he hadn't done anything, I wouldn't
stand by him. He's so overrated. All he seems to have is an English
accent. I don't believe incidents like Hugh Grant's and Cantona's are
moments of insanity. Those seem like moments of sanity. Perhaps it's
the rest of their lives that are insane. People are terribly stifled
and apart and not in touch with how they feel.
This sounds
like the Oprah Winfrey show.
I haven't been on there recently but I know what you mean. But if
people took the plunge, they'd find that they wouldn't be rejected and
life wouldn't deteriorate, but people are terribly frightened. Within
pop music people are frightened of not being accepted. I've never felt
that but I know others do.
But if
people were healthier emotionally, surely artists like yourself would
be out of a job.
But haven't we had enough art? How much art do we need? It results
in analysing vomit. There are better things to do.
Do you
get recognised in the back of taxis?
I get recognised in the front of taxis as well! But I've learned
my lesson. My celebrity doesn't cause many problems because I don't
do anything extreme. There are constant nudges and winks and nods as
I walk around. But that's survivable. But at the level of Cliff Richard
or Michael Jackson life would be unbearable. Money can't compensate
for that lack of freedom. I'm happy with the level of fame I have. Fame
really isn't as useful or attractive as it once was. If you are famous
now, you have to pay for your fame and answer for your existence. And
anything you do, however innocent, can be made to seem devious. The
only interest we have is in revealing famous people as something unsavoury.
I know that some people who are famous are terrible, relentless slags
but most of them aren't. That's why I never buy newspapers. I have no
interest in seeing people destroyed whether I like them or not. I don't
want to know about Hugh Grant. I don't want to know about Tommy Steele
even.
Were you
happier as a teenager?
No, I was never happy then. Not for one day. But I think I've probably
touched upon that in the past. I've mentioned it somewhere! I never
thought it was possible to get this old. I thought when you reached
35, you were shipped off to Anglesey. But I don't want to go back. There's
nothing happy there for me. I'm getting happier as I get older but that's
sheer perseverance. I've just stuck with it. I never enjoyed life in
my twenties, not one minute of it. It was a test of endurance that I'm
surprised I survived. Professionaly, of course, I was doing very well
but personally it couldn't have been worse or more difficult for me
if I'd been living in a mud hut in Leeds.
Have
you ever had a religious impulse?
No, I haven't in all honesty. I would like to but I haven't. There
must be consolations and comforts because millions of people can't be
wrong but I think I'm just a doomed realist.
What do
you think of Oasis?
I've always liked them. I think they're very amusing and very Mancunian
and the best Manchester group since... (shrugs smilingly).
But I do wish the singer wasn't so put out. "Do I really have
to sing this next verse?" He could always go back to being a painter
and decorator in Burnage. I read a comment supposedly by me in Club
International where I called them boring electricians, words which have
never left my lips. So they've slagged me off, of course, they have
to, but I like them. Noel's very funny. Very runt of the litter. You
can tell that he'd run off with the fillings in his grandmother's teeth
but that doesn't mean he doesn't love her.
Would you
pass Norman Tebbit's cricket test?
Yes, I would. Anything Norman Tebbit has anything to do with must
be a bad idea but if someone else were to word it differently I'd probably
support it.
If you
were forced to leave England at the point of a gun, where would you
go?
Jersey, Guernsey, anywhere with a decent postal service.
Not Los
Angeles?
No. I need grit and struggle and Los Angeles is terribly nice but
people once they get there cease to be real. Constant and repetitive
fulfilment is not good for the human spirit. We all need rain and good
old depression. Life can't be all beer and skittles.
What do
you think of Martin Rossiter from Gene? He sounds uncannily like you.
Well again, you'll fall over but I wasn't aware of Gene until someone
handed me a tape of their album and said, 'Have you ever seen Stars
In Their Eyes?' And I said, 'I'm not aware of it,' and they said, 'Well
you are going to be now.' I thought it was a good record. It didn't
so much remind me of The Smiths as (coyly) well... me.
When people sing like me, and thankfully very few do, people think it's
like The Smiths but the musicians in Gene are not like The Smiths. Let's
face it, when we begin, we all take from the people who influence us
until we find our own ground. I don't want to be cynical, old and crusty.
Why should I criticise Gene? I don't feel inclined to. But neither do
I feel that I should race toward them waving the gladioli saying, 'Now
it's your turn'.
Where do
you go for your holidays?
I don't go on holiday. Not since they shut down Butlin's at Bognor.
No, I just hang around the East End in a long black cape.
You once
said to me that your ideal audience was skinheads in nail varnish. Is
that still true?
I'm sure there was a certain flippancy to that remark. I wasn't banging
a mallet on the table.
But there's
many a true word spoken in jest.
Not by me. No, I really did get tired of being considered the flat-footed
wallflower, which still haunts me a bit. And yet I listen to other people's
music and it never strikes me as anything like as hard or confrontational
as mine. But I'm still considered this weakling.
Ever fancied
Prozac?
I know little about Prozac. I've tried it of course. We all have.
But it just didn't work for me. So there's no appeal in something that
doesn't work.
Did
you take any interest in the Tory leadership election?
Yes, I did. I was very excited by John Redwood. And very depressed
when he failed. But it's all inconsequential because Major is doomed
and it doesn't matter how many Eurovision Song Contests he wins and
how much he polished his spectacles. His life has got doom sealed around
it and rightly so because he's astonishingly weak. Redwood was amusing
and in political life that's extraordinary. He seemed amused by what
was going on and he had a spark of life, which is incredibly rare. People
like that don't succeed in politics, which is so drab now. Bad politicians
are elected by good people who don't vote. At the final hurdle it will
be Tony Blair and Michael Portillo. And I think Michael Portillo will
probably do it because the press like him. And that's all that counts.
Kinnock, who was a great orator and politican, was destroyed by the
press not by the people of England. The press like Michael Portillo
so it shall be him. John Major is weak and I don't think we should feel
sorry for him. Do you find you have several hours to kill in the day
in which to feel sorry for John Major? There are people starving to
death in Preston you know.
Where do
you buy your clothes?
I buy them second-hand from Camdem market; I have an extraordinary
capacity for disguise. I dress up as a train driver. I never buy anything
new. They do make good new clothes but I think of the West End and Comme
Des Garcons and I don't really fancy it. You walk in the door and you're
besieged by glamorous assistants and that's no good. It's very intimidating.
Would you
like to be like Van Morrison or Neil Young, an elder statesman of rock?
Not particularly, because the celebration of those people is that
they are still alive and they go on and on about how healthy they are
as if it's a miracle. That's not for me. I don't want to stick around
longer than necessary. 'So why are you still here,' I can hear
millions of people saying. The Rolling Stones are an industry and nothing
more. I've met Keith and Mick and they were very, very nice. The only
useless thing is the music. Do people listen? Part of me thinks that
the notion of pop and rock being for young people is very true.
You favour
a compulsory retirement age then?
Yes, I do. It should be whatever age I'm not. I said in 1988 I thought
pop music was over and I still believe that. Very few of the newer groups
have anything original to offer. I quite like Supergrass. But the trouble
with new young groups is that the press always ruin it. You always want
to seem ahead of the game.
Do you
still watch Top Of The Pops?
No. What's the point? I've seen it by accident and it seems always
to be the same dance song, and I've always believed that dance music
should not be allowed to infiltrate the pop chart. It should be separate
like it was in America in the '70's as was country etc. It makes it
impossible to listen to the radio or watch The Chart Show. It's always
dance stroke rap stroke whatever.
Jungle?
Jungle! I don't know what it is.
It's someone
shouting incomprehensibly over mechanical rhythms.
But I thought that was the Jesus And Mary Chain.
What do
you think of the Criminal Justice Bill? Do you think people in leggings
have a right to live wherever they choose?
I don't think people in leggings have a right to live. I don't think
people should hold raves because I don't like rave music. I suggested
the Criminal Justice Bill, so I'm glad that it's been taken up.
Ever bought
a Lottery ticket?
Absolutely never. When anybody mentions the Lottery I feel quite
ill. It's one of the worst things ever to happen to England. It makes
people savage and tedious. Do something useful instead. And I absolutely
loathe Anthea Turner. If she gave me a cheque for 20 million I'd hand
it back. She's awful to watch. That fixed smile, that fraudulent jollity.
She's on breakfast television and even if she were telling you that
a planeload of children had died in the worst Air India crash ever,
she would still keep smiling. How has she got a job? Her happiness actually
makes me depressed.
Ever been
to a karaoke evening?
Yes, at the Little Driver in Bow and it was shocking.
Why?
You know why. I like simple pleasures and uncomplicated people but
that takes the biscuit. I can't understand why anybody would want to
do it. There are easier ways to embarrass yourself.
I see Paul
Weller's back.
Back? Where's he been? I haven't noticed. He was encouraging at one
time because he was one artist who surpassed his heroes. The Jam will
be very special forever. I think people are saying thank you for The
Jam. And for younger groups like Blur obviously it struck a chord. Weller
performed 'Woodcutter's Son' on Later and immediately after, Supergrass
came in with 'We are young...' and I thought, 'There's a gigantic message
hanging in the air there for you, Uncle Paul.'
What did
Kurt Cobain's suicide mean to you?
I felt sad and I felt envious. He had the courage to do it. I admire
people who self-destruct and that's not a new comment for me. They are
taking control. They're refusing to continue with unhappiness, which
shows tremendous self-will. It must be very frightening to sit down
and look at your watch and think, 'In 30 minutes I will not be here.'
Thinking, 'I'm going to go on that strange journey.' Modern life is
very pressurising. We're all on the verge of hysteria. There are people
around who'll shoot your head off because you forgot to indicate.
Could you
survive in prison?
Only as a stand-up comedian. No, prison would probably be the making
of me. It would be the beginning of life. Freedom doesn't always mean
freedom. I'd probably prosper. We all need a bit of restriction.
Have
you ever been to a Yates's Wine Lodge?
Yes, there was one in Manchester in the old days full of drunken
men in overcoats with sick on their lapels. I like pubs; they're one
of the last bastions of Englishness. I like quiet old men's pubs. I
mean, I like the pubs to be quiet not the old men.
Ever been
in trouble with the police?
Never. Well, that's a lie. I was visited a long time ago about a
song I once did.
So the
"Margaret On The Guillotine" story is true?
Of course. Yes, ridiculous grounds. But they don't need grounds,
they've got a funny little hat and a truncheon. They recorded a conversation
for an hour and searched the house for a guillotine. Curiously, they
actually found one. They thought I was public enemy number 72. And at
the end of the grilling they actually asked me to sign various things
for ailing nieces, which I thought was a bit perverted.
Riots are
back. Do you approve?
Yes, I do. (Laughs) No, I don't. The '70's persist,
don't they? I saw some Chopper bicycles outside a pub the other day,
which I thought was extreme. I've only ever found violence attractive
from a distance, which is a bit pathetic, I know, but I suppose if you're
in the thick of it, it's a bit unsettling. Incidentally, do you fuckin'
want some?
Do I take
it you're a fan of Quentin Tarantino?
Is he 'Pulp Fiction'? I haven't seen that. I'm not ready for John
Revolting yet. I have bigger fish to fry.
Are you
a member of anything?
The Skinhead Benevolent Fund. No, I don't mix. I don't make friends
ever. I don't see the point.
But you
have friends, so you must have made them at some point.
Don't complicate things. We have as many friends as we have personalities.
Do you know who said that? Emerson. Keith Emerson.
Do you
work out?
No, not at all. I don't do anything. I'd never feel confident in
a gym. I wheel a trolley around Waitrose.
Do you
ever stand in front of the urinal and think you've got the whole world
in your hands?
I don't need to walk towards the urinal, I already know. And you
should know better than to ask.
That's
an enigmatic answer.
Well, we do our best.
